Skill sharing session 5 (log)

(15:01:18) txopi: hi
(15:02:38) Didleth: hi
(15:03:04) Didleth: Alster: are you there?
(15:06:32) Alster: Didleth: yes i am
(15:06:36) Alster: hi txopi 
(15:06:45) Alster: and hi Didleth :)
(15:07:14) Didleth: hi you both :]
(15:07:20) Didleth: we can start i belive
(15:07:35) Didleth: i can put logs in cb - if not today, that tommorow
(15:07:54) Alster: thanks! :)
(15:08:02) Alster: https://we.riseup.net/kosmos/skill-sharing-session-5-agenda
(15:08:13) Alster: anything to be added to the agenda?
(15:08:32) Didleth: but i have a question - it is necassary to delete information like 'txopi go out, alster change topic, didleth is know as...' if the irc anonimizing connection?
(15:09:15) Alster: Didleth: i don'T think so. i think this is actually useful information. you may just want to remove the hostnames
(15:09:29) Didleth: hmmmm... 'i'm wondering or there is some command who show processname (or start-program-name) when i only know the program-name in graphical-mode' do you thing it would b unnice to add this?
(15:09:35) Alster: but since they are not the original hostnames in your case, you may even skip that
(15:10:12) Didleth: ok, so i will just paste it - if someone don't want to be in logs, let he/she say this now 
(15:10:17) Alster: hmm no i don't know, sorry
(15:10:44) Alster: txopi: are you ready, yet?
(15:10:53) txopi: Alster: i am ready
(15:10:59) txopi: Alster: nothing to add to the agenda
(15:11:12) Didleth: from my site nothing more to
(15:11:40) txopi: Didleth: you can search for @ in the logs and delete the hostnames and ip adresses
(15:11:58) Alster: we'll actually learn how to do this today :)
(15:11:59) Didleth: txopi: yhm, ok, as you wish :]
(15:12:27) Didleth: Alster: cat logs |grep '@' 
(15:12:32) txopi: i prefer if you delete that information
(15:12:39) Didleth: txopi: ok
(15:12:50) Alster: i prefer it a little bit, too
(15:12:55) Alster: soryy ;-)
(15:13:05) Didleth: ok if you want this I can of corse delete it
(15:13:09) Didleth: no reason for sorry ; )
(15:13:16) txopi: first of all i think that we should but a time limit for this session, because in the previous sessions we didn't have any
(15:13:44) Alster: txopi: that's a good point, do you want to suggest one?
(15:13:53) txopi: not specially
(15:13:55) Didleth: txopi: do you have somethings against 7-hours sessions? ;>
(15:14:11) Didleth things the last sessions was long but nice
(15:14:14) Alster: hehe
(15:14:14) txopi: i just want not to stay connected the rest of the day here :-)
(15:14:37) Didleth: txopi: you don't like us ;P
(15:14:40) Alster: aha, so you dont like to sped your day with us! ;-)
(15:14:46) Alster: hehe
(15:14:54) Didleth: so ok... how long max do you want to talk today?
(15:14:55) txopi: it was nice of course, but i also want to go to the swimming-pools, have dinner, etc.
(15:15:09) Alster: ok, let's say until 18:00 CET, so 2h45m?
(15:15:24) txopi: good
(15:15:32) Alster: ok with you Didleth ?
(15:15:35) Didleth: ok so let start
(15:16:02) Alster: if you don't mind, i'd like to do the xen stuff before the shell comamnds
(15:16:14) txopi: no problem
(15:16:15) Didleth: Alster: well... i afraid we can no doing all what we want but if its ok for you i agree
(15:16:23) txopi: is right for me
(15:16:24) Didleth: ok
(15:16:39) Alster: yes we won't make it all
(15:16:47) Alster: that's fine
(15:17:13) Alster: so, didleth does the loggging, so we're at 2. Next meeting
(15:17:16) Didleth: yhm, so xen now?
(15:17:22) Didleth: aaa... sorry
(15:17:34) Didleth: wait a moment
(15:17:35) Didleth: brb
(15:18:10) Didleth: now ok - its easier for the logs like this
(15:18:21) Alster: how do we go about next meeting? plan it now or hope someone will plan it after this meeting?
(15:18:52) Didleth: tommorow it will be to quickly for you?
(15:19:35) Alster: hmm i need to work on stuff tomorrow, so i may not have time
(15:19:35) txopi: tomorrow i will be out all the day. i just can connect in the night, so i prefer to do next session other day
(15:20:08) Didleth: in the planer the next free term is tuesday 08.dec 21.00
(15:20:35) Didleth: sand the wednesday 19.00
(15:20:51) txopi: harcesz is going to participate today?
(15:21:07) Didleth: still ok for you or do you have some another plans?
(15:21:18) Didleth: txopi: i belive not - he didn't answer to my sms
(15:21:28) Alster: turesday and wednes are still fine by me
(15:21:38) Didleth: txopi: and for you?
(15:21:50) txopi: they are fine both for me also
(15:22:04) tryb (+o Didleth) przez txopi
(15:22:18) Didleth: hmm.... for me wednesday it better
(15:22:30) txopi: ok
(15:22:37) Didleth: thx txopi
(15:22:43) Didleth: so wednesday 19.00?
(15:22:53) Alster: works for me
(15:23:06) Didleth: ok
(15:23:28) txopi: mmmh
(15:23:29) Didleth: someone should write it to the list after session
(15:23:43) txopi: would you mind if we start at 20:00 Didleth?
(15:23:59) Didleth: a can this of course but I will be gracefull if someone rrmember me about this
(15:24:08) txopi: one hour later is much better for me
(15:24:33) Alster: wednesday 20:00 works for me, too
(15:24:41) txopi: but i can also at 19:00 if i plan the day well
(15:24:56) Didleth: txopi: for me even better - you know, i finish my work at 18.00, im at home cirka 18.30-18.45, have go out with a dog - and with 19.00 wouldn't just have time to eat something ; )
(15:25:09) txopi: perfect
(15:25:09) Didleth: what is ok for me, but you know, i prefer to eat something ; )
(15:25:19) txopi: so wendsday at 20:00
(15:25:28) Alster: eating is widely overrated
(15:25:30) Didleth: yhm
(15:25:36) Alster: yes
(15:25:57) Didleth: ok so lets go
(15:26:05) txopi: next point
(15:26:13) Alster: 3. Nadir virtual server status
(15:26:16) txopi: 3. Nadir virtual server status
(15:26:23) Alster: is there anything you'd like to report on this?
(15:26:30) txopi: i wrote to nadir
(15:26:36) Alster: ...or discuss
(15:26:43) txopi: but haven't any response yet
(15:26:53) Alster: when did you write?
(15:27:13) txopi: i have been talking with imc-eh people and we are trying to think how to get money
(15:27:17) Didleth: well... i write, wait
(15:27:37) txopi: november 29
(15:27:50) Alster notes it sometimes, actually not rarely, takes more than one email to get in touch with Nadir unfortunately...
(15:27:53) Didleth: 14 nivember i belive
(15:27:58) Didleth: no answer
(15:28:12) Didleth: last time in this week, about money - no answer too
(15:28:22) Alster: if you have not received a response for a week it's a good idea to write again
(15:28:42) Alster: i know this sucks, it annoys me, too
(15:29:00) txopi: i asked money issue so i think it is natural they need time to think, talk and response
(15:29:04) Alster: but then they are just volunteers either
(15:29:15) Didleth: well... i don't want to be impudent
(15:29:21) Alster: yes they usually meet once a week and make decisions then
(15:29:36) Didleth: (well, I am from nature, but i belive its unnice)
(15:29:54) txopi: at imc-eh we also need time to think ways to get money so i think is better to just wait
(15:30:18) Alster: so if you wauted for a week and got no response it means they probably met in between but failed to discuss your topic or forgot to get back to you
(15:30:27) Alster: waited
(15:30:34) txopi: we would like to know how much money they are specting and how urgent is it also, to make plans at imc-eh
(15:30:37) Didleth: txopi: we want to heve meeting in imc-pl after we know how many money they wish
(15:30:55) txopi: Didleth: aha
(15:31:08) Didleth: btw txopi i asked them or it is possibility to stay of nadir if we both imc migrate to dropal some day and how many it would be cost
(15:31:13) Didleth: i hope you don't mind
(15:31:22) txopi: we haven't made a meeting in the last 5 years! (until two weeks ago)
(15:31:39) txopi: so i don't think we are going to join phisically at least in one year
(15:31:58) txopi: we will have to work and take decissions by email
(15:32:20) txopi: Didleth: i don't mind
(15:32:30) Didleth: txopi: hehe, by us similar - last meeting was ~  four years ago, and now in the june this year - but we last time use irc to have meeting
(15:32:49) txopi: i think it also didn't mind them wich software we execute in the vm
(15:33:23) Alster: which email address did you send your emails to?
(15:33:25) txopi: so, imc-eh and imc-pl are waiting for nadir's information
(15:33:48) Alster: did you send them encrypted?
(15:33:53) txopi: to the address Didleth gave me: nadir-technik@nadir.org
(15:33:59) Didleth: Alster: exectly i'm not sure
(15:34:09) Alster: yes thats the correct address
(15:34:10) txopi: plain text
(15:34:13) Didleth: i just doin't knwo how to check or my mail it encrypted
(15:34:36) Didleth: some days thunderbird asked me every time, and now he is doing this automaticly and i just don't know
(15:34:51) txopi: i use gnupg but just when i need to sign or encrypt the message
(15:35:01) Alster: ok, if you send an email to nadir-technik@nadir.org with a subject line which says nothing but exactly this: send key!
(15:35:14) Alster: and nothing at all in the body of the email
(15:35:22) Alster: then you should receive their key
(15:35:26) txopi: aha
(15:35:28) Didleth: Alster: i have thier key, i only hope thunderbird encryt this with my key
(15:35:41) Alster: but they should have recieved your emails nevertheless
(15:35:47) txopi: done
(15:36:31) txopi: should i send my one so they can response me in a encrypted message?
(15:36:50) Didleth: Alster: so...that what you suggest is wait once week and when they don't answer to write them again?
(15:36:57) Didleth: txopi: yes
(15:37:18) Alster: Didleth: maybe we can look into encryption with thunderbird after this meeting
(15:37:57) Didleth: Alster: i'm not sure or I will stay in a flat when meeting is so short, but i i will - we can do this :]
(15:38:22) txopi: well, this point it done for me. anything more about nadir?
(15:38:48) txopi: wow, nadir send me the key already!
(15:39:38) txopi: i will resend my email in a signed message with my public key atached
(15:39:38) Didleth: hehe
(15:39:47) Didleth: i belive its automat
(15:39:47) txopi: but not today, perhaps tomorrow
(15:39:51) txopi: sure
(15:40:17) Alster: the key is sent automatically, that's why it is so fast :)
(15:41:43) txopi: next point?
(15:41:46) Didleth: yhm - so leth to another topic
(15:41:54) txopi: 4) Skill Sharing: Server virtualization by example: Xen (Alster)
(15:43:11) Alster: ok, sorry
(15:44:32) Alster: i was somewhat distracted, since i had a short backroom chat with one of nadir
(15:44:51) Alster: i just told him that you have sent emails and did not receive a reply yet
(15:45:00) Alster: i think they will send a reply shortly
(15:45:15) Didleth: thx Alster :]
(15:45:30) txopi: perfect
(15:46:04) Alster: do you know silc?
(15:46:17) Didleth: no
(15:46:35) Alster: it'S an alternative chat protocol to irc, quite similar to it.
(15:47:08) txopi: i have heart about it
(15:47:15) txopi: german imc people use it
(15:47:21) Alster: i don't want to go into details now. we can do it some other time. but this is how you can also reach nadir in such a case
(15:47:37) Alster: no txopi we hardly use it for imc germany
(15:47:45) txopi: when we had problems with kosmos we can't talk with them because they were all at silc
(15:47:46) Alster: we much more use irc
(15:48:04) txopi: thank's to root, Zapata was on the irc :-)
(15:48:18) Didleth: Alster: maybe we add silc as a point to the next meeting ok?
(15:48:52) txopi: Alster: yes? i'm thinking about 7 years ago or so
(15:49:01) txopi: Alster: yes? i'm talking about 7 years ago or so
(15:49:51) Didleth: wow.... Zapata is not on irc right now O_o
(15:50:05) Alster: the nadir chat is on silc.so36.net in the channel named blob
(15:50:10) txopi: i'm not specially interested on silc
(15:50:12) Didleth: shoud we beginn to wory about him? ; )
(15:50:20) Alster: https://www.so36.net/dienste/silc-network
(15:50:24) txopi: irc over ssl is enought for my interest right now
(15:50:31) Alster: this lists the server forming the silc network
(15:50:40) Alster: ok, that's fine txopi
(15:51:01) Alster: i just wanted you to know how i contact them in case of emergency or to remind them about stuff
(15:51:48) Alster: their silc channel is also not meant to be a support channel, it's not meant to be an 'official' channel, the only official one is email
(15:52:03) txopi: Alster: ok
(15:52:05) Alster: anyway, let'S go on with xen, ok?
(15:52:12) txopi: yes please
(15:52:33) Alster: Server virtualization by example: Xen (Alster)
(15:52:33) Alster: Host vs Guest, Xen Hypervisor vs Dom0 vs DomU, hardware-assisted virtualization (HVM) vs para-virtualization (PVM), hardware support (Intel VT + AMD-V), Xen Dom0/DomU kernel patches, compare to KVM, compare to openvz/lxr/linux-vserver/chroot
(15:53:20) Didleth: seems very complicated....
(15:53:31) Alster: So, server virtualization means that you only have one real server/computer, but effectively run multiple servers an operating systems on it.
(15:53:34) txopi: i have had some little experience with virtualbox and vmware
(15:53:57) Alster: Didleth: do you have any experience with virtualization?
(15:54:40) Didleth: no...it always was something away comlicated and for geeks only
(15:54:51) Didleth: and scary ;D
(15:54:53) txopi: he he
(15:54:57) Alster: it can be quite easy nowadays really
(15:55:07) Didleth: we will see
(15:55:13) Alster: if you run ubuntu, you can just install virtualbox and give it a try
(15:55:19) txopi: Didleth, welcome to the Matrix.............................
(15:55:25) Alster: hehe
(15:55:37) Didleth: hmm...when i will understand this can i call me 'geek'? ;D
(15:55:49) txopi: no
(15:56:06) Didleth: Alster: should I do it know?
(15:56:08) Alster: sorry ;-)
(15:56:12) Didleth: txopi: pitty ; )
(15:56:15) txopi: it is better if you start talking about xen to someone that has no idea of it and he/she will call you geek
(15:56:25) txopi: that's the procedure ;-)
(15:56:25) Alster: no Didleth please let's have a hands-on session another time
(15:56:57) Alster: i just want to explain the basics now so you have an idea of what you talk about when you discuss with nadir
(15:57:04) txopi was joking
(15:57:08) Alster: as with many (but not all :)) new inventions in IT, virtualization has a purpose, or even several
(15:57:14) Didleth: txopi: it not this same.... you know, if somene in editional-collective says i do a good tech-work its not this same like for example harcesz would say this
(15:57:40) txopi: ok Alster, continue
(15:58:48) Alster: one aspect is consolidation. If you run a data center, or at least several computers in a small room (such as many radcial tech collectives do it), after some years you end up with lots of old computers which take a lot of space and eat lots of power.
(15:59:14) Alster: and you could just buy one new server which would be so much more powerful than those old boxes
(15:59:21) Alster: kosmos is one such old box :)
(15:59:39) Didleth: ; )
(16:00:35) Alster: so how can you keep the software installe don these old servers but run it on some new server hardware?
(16:01:02) Didleth: alster: maybe install many servers on one disc?
(16:01:06) Didleth: its possible?
(16:01:25) Alster: there are two options: you could install a new linux on the new server and try to migrate all the old servers into this one new server, creating several user accounts for everyone who used to have one on the old servers.
(16:02:07) Alster: but that's a lot of work (try to combine a drupal apache setup with a mir apache setup and tomcat and whatever - it works but it's annoying)
(16:02:53) Alster: you would also not want to run an irc server, icecast streaming audio, a dns server, web server, mail server etc all on one server, because this makes it quite insecure and difficult to manage
(16:03:12) Didleth: yhm
(16:03:19) Alster: it's much better to have just a few similar services running within one server
(16:03:31) Alster: so here's option two: virtualization.
(16:03:47) Alster: that's right, you can install multiple servers on one hard disk.
(16:04:04) Alster: but it's not so much about where you install them, more how you make it to have them run in parallel
(16:04:42) Alster: 'real' server virtualization usually works so that you have one very small operating system run on the bare hardware
(16:04:51) Didleth: in parallell=in this same time?
(16:05:19) Alster: and this small operating system does basically nothing but to allow for additional operating systems to run below it.
(16:05:24) Alster: yes Didleth 
(16:06:36) Alster: there are also some virtualization systems where you have a full operating system (such as ubuntu) on the bare hardware, and then some additional operating systems below that (that's how virtualbox does it)
(16:07:29) Alster: this operating system which runs on the bare hardware is called 'Host', since it allows the other operating systems to run 'on' it.
(16:07:44) Didleth: wait
(16:07:49) Alster: and the other operating systems which run below it are called 'guests'
(16:08:22) Didleth: you mean - one hardware -> one operating system -> to run a lot of operation system -> to run a lot of server? do i good understand?
(16:09:14) Alster: hmm, i don'T think i understand your question. can you ask in a complete sentence, please?
(16:10:03) Didleth: there is one hardware/hardisc. in this there is a operationsystem, which make a lot of operating-system run?
(16:10:31) txopi: can i try to explain something Alster?
(16:10:38) Alster: yes, basically. forget about the hard disk for now, it is just confusing
(16:10:44) Didleth: yhm
(16:10:46) Alster: txopi: please do
(16:11:13) txopi: operating system, programs, etc. are software
(16:11:26) txopi: the software is executed over the hardware
(16:11:40) Didleth: yhm - i know difference between softrware and hardware
(16:11:48) txopi: the hardware says to the software: the A key has been executed
(16:12:05) Didleth: :-/
(16:12:18) txopi: the hardware says to the software: a package has come over the wifi
(16:12:22) Didleth: and it isnt that the software ececuted hardware?
(16:12:32) txopi: Didleth, i know i know that. wait a second
(16:12:37) Didleth: so it saying: hey, hardware, could you plenase execute the key?
(16:13:03) txopi: the software says to the hardware, send this email throw the ethernet wire
(16:13:06) Didleth: (well... not the key but the action key did)
(16:13:15) txopi: the software says to the hardware, save this file
(16:13:25) Didleth: :-/
(16:14:00) txopi: the software get and put information though the hardware
(16:14:32) txopi: a virtual machine, for me, is like an special program that simulates a hardware
(16:14:44) Didleth: software is software, hardwere is hardware... for me just hardwer is a body and softwere is a brain... and now i stop yto understand this :-/
(16:15:02) Didleth: aha
(16:15:05) Didleth: now i understand
(16:15:26) txopi: so the software into the guest system talks with the hardware (but the hardware is not phisical, is virtual, in fact is a software program in the host machine)
(16:15:42) Didleth: sorry I behave as a noob again :(
(16:15:47) Didleth: just continaete
(16:15:59) txopi: let me search an schema image
(16:16:12) Alster: http://www.apac.redhat.com/img/virtualization.png
(16:16:24) Alster: txopi: how about this one
(16:16:48) Didleth: yhm, thx
(16:17:05) txopi: http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/encyclopedia_images/VMMTYPE3.GIF
(16:17:37) txopi: Alster, let me explain the image i refered first
(16:17:40) Alster: sure
(16:17:45) txopi: Didleth, look at the second image
(16:18:02) txopi: hardware is in the down side
(16:18:14) txopi: and over it is the software
(16:18:14) Didleth: yhm
(16:18:17) txopi: that is easy
(16:18:26) Didleth: micro hypervisior its software?
(16:18:27) txopi: you already knew that
(16:19:13) txopi: the virtual machine lies to the guest machine, and he thinks that is executing over a hardware, but it isn't, it is just another program into a host machine
(16:19:29) txopi: in the image, the virtual machines are the green boxes
(16:20:08) Didleth: green?
(16:20:14) txopi: the guest operating system ("guest os") think he is talking with the physical hardware, but it isn't
(16:20:21) Didleth: by my green is only app in the third imagin
(16:20:21) txopi: ups
(16:20:26) txopi: i meand greay box
(16:20:31) Didleth: aha now ok
(16:21:31) Didleth: yhm
(16:21:47) Alster: yes the (micro) hypervisor is the software which, when talking to the guest operating systems on the 'VM' (virtual machine/server), claims it is actually hardware
(16:21:52) txopi: the virtual machines software think it is talking with the physical hardware but the hardware in this case is just a program in the host machine
(16:21:54) Didleth: like the policest who are talking they are from movement to have information]
(16:22:05) Didleth: from the activix
(16:22:08) Didleth: i understand
(16:22:14) txopi: xD
(16:23:12) txopi: a virtual machine is a software that simulates hardware, so you can install many programs inside and they work as if they were a physical machine
(16:23:22) txopi: more or less, of course
(16:23:25) Didleth: vm ist just plain-clothes software from the hardware to inivigilate the guest-os-movement
(16:23:43) Didleth: yhm, i belive i understand
(16:24:22) txopi: Alster, you can continue if you want
(16:24:47) Didleth: txopi: sorry.... i hope i was not make you angry
(16:25:05) txopi: whay?!
(16:25:07) txopi: why?!
(16:25:14) txopi: i'm not angry1
(16:25:27) txopi: i'm just helping with the explanation
(16:25:32) Didleth: with my alway-asking-something and strnegne-compareting
(16:25:36) Didleth: yhm, ok
(16:25:37) txopi: i never explained this to anybody :-)
(16:25:45) Didleth: sorry, continuate :]
(16:26:32) Alster: ok :)
(16:26:50) Alster: thanks txopi, good explanation
(16:27:35) Alster: so this is the basic conecpt of server consolidation: http://www.apac.redhat.com/img/virtualization.png
(16:28:18) Alster: you take all the software from multiple real servers and put it into virtual servers in virtual machines within one real server
(16:28:33) Didleth: yhm
(16:29:03) Alster: i assume everything is completely clear about this image yet?
(16:29:28) Didleth: for me it is i hope
(16:29:35) Alster: txopis' image already goes one step further there, and takes a closer look inside the new server
(16:29:36) Alster: http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/encyclopedia_images/VMMTYPE3.GIF
(16:30:13) Alster: you have the bare server hardwar eon the bottom, then you have the virtualization layer which is (mostly) the 'hypervisor'
(16:30:20) Didleth: what is micro hypervisior exactly?
(16:30:22) txopi: for me too: we are not living in a real word, it is in fact just one virtual world that root executes in the real universe...
(16:30:33) Alster: <Alster> yes the (micro) hypervisor is the software which, when talking to the guest operating systems on the 'VM' (virtual machine/server), claims it is actually hardware
(16:30:38) Didleth: lol
(16:31:39) Alster: we're all processes in a virtual machine, just get to see what we're supposed to get to see, whether or not there's yet another layer on top, we don't know...
(16:31:43) Didleth: :-/ that meand VM doesn't talk he is hardware, only micro-hypervisior talk 'VM is a hardware'?
(16:32:08) Didleth: and guest OS belive micrio-hypervisior and doesn't VM or its true?
(16:32:20) Didleth: *doesn't ask
(16:32:45) Alster: in many cases, the guest OS does not actually know it is not running on the real hardware
(16:33:04) Didleth: :-/ 
(16:33:33) Alster: but there are virtualization techniques where the guest OS is customized so that it better works within a virtualized system
(16:33:45) Didleth: if he will be a man, it will be wrong belive microhypervisior and don't ask VM... i hope it's not wronk by mashine
(16:34:20) txopi: i'm not understanding Didleth. Alster do you?
(16:34:33) Alster: not really, no :-/
(16:34:43) Didleth: well, i just don't understand
(16:34:44) txopi: Didleth, why you say :-/ ?
(16:34:54) txopi: ah, ok
(16:35:00) txopi: Alster, explain :-)
(16:35:14) Alster: what exactly should i explain? :)
(16:35:43) Alster: 'virtual machine' (VM) is just a term which describes the guest system, so the operating system and the applications of the guest system
(16:35:48) Didleth: hardware - i understand
(16:35:51) Alster: it's is not a software or a precess
(16:36:00) Didleth: guest os - i more or less understand
(16:36:01) Alster: process
(16:36:50) Alster: the hypervisor is above of it. for the virtual machine, the hypervisor is what it sees as the server hardware
(16:36:58) Didleth: but i don't know, did they relyy need micro-hypervisior to think that VM is a hardvare?
(16:37:24) Didleth: can they (Guest-OS) just thing this becouse VM say it them? 
(16:38:17) txopi: perhaps i am wrong but i understadn that micro-hypervisor is the software piece that simulated the hardware
(16:38:30) Alster: the VMs think they are the only operating system on a server hardware. and they think the hypervisor is the server hardware.
(16:39:05) Didleth: aha....so VM does't symulate hardware only operating system on hardware-mashine?
(16:39:09) Didleth: ok now i undersat
(16:39:12) Alster: but in fact there are several VMs on this one hardware, so the hypervisor pretends to each of the VMs "hi, i'm your hardware, and there is nothing else on this server"
(16:39:29) Didleth: yhm
(16:39:29) Alster: but in fact the hypervisor does this for all the VMs at the same time
(16:39:55) Alster: and there must be something like the hypervisor because there really is only one real hardware on the very top
(16:40:04) Didleth: ok
(16:40:18) Alster: so the hypervisro just combiones all these requests of the VMs and passes them to the real hardware on top of it
(16:40:39) Alster: glad you understand :)
(16:40:50) Alster: that's the most tricky part
(16:41:13) Didleth: sorry that i understand this erst now - but better late that never ; )
(16:41:24) Alster: that's fine, it took me a while, too
(16:41:33) Alster: much longer than you in fact
(16:41:40) Alster: since nobody explained it to me :)
(16:41:56) Didleth: hehe, thatwhy I have you both :D
(16:42:03) Alster: :)
(16:42:39) Alster: so, next step, let's make it more difficult :)
(16:42:45) Didleth: ok... now we have Service VM who is think is software in the hardware
(16:43:03) Didleth: and vm who are thinking they are software in the hardwere
(16:43:19) Alster: right, basically the same, isn't it?
(16:43:33) Didleth: but in the fact they are only software in the micro-hypervisior who is softrware who symulate hardware, right?
(16:43:43) txopi: yes
(16:44:37) Alster: yes, they are just software _below_ the hypervisor
(16:44:55) Alster: so, in tyopis image, why is one of the VMs called 'service VM' and the others are just called 'VM'?
(16:45:06) Alster: t_x_opis :)
(16:45:09) Didleth: and service is.... i'm not sure or I good understand
(16:45:24) Didleth: it's a place with a lot of computers and servers?
(16:45:36) Didleth: and people who repair them?
(16:45:42) txopi has heard that imc canarias (some "spanish" islands that are located in africa) is looking for a machine to migrate and they want to talk with me (jon, imc canarias tech is a master of drupal)
(16:46:03) Alster: \o/
(16:46:18) Alster: Didleth: it's because the service VM has a special role. 
(16:46:21) Didleth: txopi: drupal you say? i belive imc-pl should know him ;D
(16:46:47) Didleth: whait alster
(16:46:50) Didleth: let me thing...
(16:48:02) Didleth: maybe its a place who is basically for all another vm? with all drivers? to make another VM possible to run? and when you make some new drivers in service vm, you don't have to install it on every one VM?
(16:48:21) Didleth: I'm just guessting
(16:48:29) txopi: "in txopis image, why is one of the VMs called 'service VM' and the others are just called 'VM'?" - - > i have no idea
(16:49:01) Alster: the 'service VM' actually knows that it runs on virtualized hardware and below the hypervisor. this is a special virtual machine which allows the server administrator (of the complete hardware server) to configure and remote-control the hypervisor.
(16:49:54) txopi: ok, i think i understand
(16:49:56) Alster: the server administrator will connect to this 'service VM'set up and configure new virtual machines with the help of the hyperviros.
(16:50:53) Alster: when you want your tv to switch channels you don't dive into your tv and press a button, but you go to your living room and use the remote control to ask the tv to switch channels.
(16:51:05) Alster: or to mute a channel
(16:51:15) Alster: or to start teletext
(16:52:34) txopi: Alster, that's the case for xen isn't it? smaller vm solutions like virtualbox also have this?
(16:52:54) Alster: so to configure, start and stop (other) virtual machines, the administrator of the complete server hardware will connect to the 'Service VM' and, form there, ask the hyperviros to do it for him/her.
(16:53:20) Alster: txopi: right, this is how xen works, and in fact this is _not_ how vitualbox works.
(16:53:33) txopi: ok, so xen is a more professional solution
(16:53:36) txopi: i understand
(16:53:38) Didleth: alster - som service-WM is administration-panel to hypervisor?
(16:54:15) Alster: what i'm explaining now is one special kind of virtualization setup, which is considered the most mature way of virtualization, which is usually used for server vritualization.
(16:55:05) txopi: aha
(16:55:33) Alster: this type of virtualization is called hypervisor (or bare metal/hardware) virtualization
(16:56:16) Alster: Didleth: the one (there si only one) Service VM acts as the administration interface to the hypervisor, correct.
(16:56:29) Alster: Didleth: are you stillfollowing or am I going to fast?
(16:58:33) Alster: other implementations which doe it like Xen are VMWare ESX (_not_ vmware server/workstation!) and Hyper-VM (microsoft)
(16:59:01) Alster: i _think_ KVM also does it this way
(16:59:44) Didleth: :-/
(17:00:01) Alster: what makes you unhappy, Didleth ?
(17:00:25) Didleth gugle vmwareesx and hyper-wm
(17:00:44) Didleth: and kvm...
(17:01:18) Alster: i'm not sure that's a good idea, you'll get swamped with terms you don't know yet, since all of these impementations use their own nomenclature
(17:01:25) Didleth: btw :-/ doesn't mean unhappy only wondering or something
(17:01:45) Alster: ok, but it makes me unhappy if you don't understand something :)
(17:01:51) Didleth: but i'm just not understand what are you talikng about
(17:02:42) Didleth: (16:58:33) Alster: other implementations which doe it like Xen are VMWare ESX (_not_ vmware server/workstation!) and Hyper-VM (microsoft)
(17:02:42) Didleth: (16:59:01) Alster: i _think_ KVM also does it this way
(17:02:48) Didleth: this is what i don't understand
(17:03:05) Alster: i don't think you can expect to understand all these virtualization setups just yet. I just wanted you to know there are others so you can have a look at them later on.
(17:03:17) Didleth: ok
(17:03:30) Alster: Xen is just one implementation of server virtualization
(17:03:36) txopi: Didleth, imagine he is talking about nano and suddenly says: "vi and jed work like that and i think gedit also"
(17:03:38) Alster: there are others
(17:03:46) txopi: don't worry if you don't understand all
(17:03:50) Didleth: fur me even better - alle the names seems scary for learn it 
(17:03:53) Alster: thanks txopi :)
(17:04:04) Didleth: ok txopi now i understand
(17:04:06) txopi: i don't know all that vm softwares but i don't care too much
(17:04:06) Didleth: thx :]
(17:04:21) Didleth: txopi: are you maybe a schoolteacher?
(17:04:36) txopi: me? no! xdDD
(17:04:53) Didleth: ;) but you could ;)
(17:04:58) txopi: but some people says to me that i explain things clear
(17:05:10) txopi: i am starting that perhaps they are right....
(17:05:26) txopi: i am starting to think that perhaps they are right....
(17:05:47) Didleth: hehe they are :]
(17:05:53) Didleth: ok lets continuate
(17:05:54) txopi: ok Alster, continue. we are understanding all the important things
(17:05:58) Alster: to make it even more difficult, like all the other implementations, Xen uses it's own names for the various parts of the virtualization. so far, we used generic terms such as 'guest server' 'host server' 'service machine'
(17:06:25) Alster: i'd like to introduce the names Xen uses since you will be using this implementation in the future
(17:07:18) txopi: ok
(17:07:31) Didleth: yhm
(17:07:31) Alster: Xen uses the term 'hyperviros', I think it is actually they who invented this term. A more general term would be 'hardware virtualization/emulation layer'
(17:07:43) Alster: 'hypervisor' sorry
(17:07:57) Alster: not hypervirus :)
(17:08:01) Didleth: ;D
(17:08:03) txopi: xD
(17:08:11) txopi: good joke!
(17:08:37) Alster: in the Xen world, the service VM is called Dom0
(17:08:44) Alster: also nown as Domain 0
(17:08:48) Alster: also known as Domain 0
(17:08:49) Didleth: yhm
(17:09:00) txopi: aha
(17:09:10) Alster: the other virtual machines are called 'DomU' or 'Domain U'
(17:09:30) Didleth: yhm
(17:10:01) Alster: you should also know that there are two type of how you can run xen
(17:10:07) Alster: 1. paravirtualization
(17:10:20) Didleth: seems like paranormal ;D
(17:10:22) Alster: 2. hardware assisted virtualization
(17:10:29) Alster: it is a bit :)
(17:12:50) Alster: ad 1.: paravirtualization is abbrebiated as PVM. In this virtualization model, the virtual machine can not run as is. it needs to be modified to work below the hypervisor, since the hypervisor only emulates parts of the real hardware, but not everything. so the virtual machine must be a bit more intelligent. some parts of it do actually know it is a virtual server, and does not run on bare hardware.
(17:13:37) Didleth: ....
(17:13:47) Alster: because it is more intelligent, the hypervisor does not need to emulate the real hardware so much for this virtual machine to work. so it has less to do, and as a result a PVM works faster.
(17:13:52) Didleth: sorry, i belive not to follow so hoch-english
(17:14:05) Didleth: i need some mintes to translate
(17:14:50) Alster: ok, the same thing again, plain and simply: With PVM, the VM is changed a bit to work better and faster.
(17:15:05) Alster: it may get more clear when I come to 2.
(17:15:32) Didleth: what is the grund form for a word abbrebiated?
(17:15:44) Alster: abbreviate. it means 'short for'
(17:15:50) Didleth: aha, ok
(17:16:01) Alster: i should use more simple terms, sorry ;-)
(17:16:19) Didleth: no Its my foulk, i should learn more english
(17:16:27) Didleth: a lot of people was saing it to me
(17:17:01) Alster: you have a couple years to catch up ;-)
(17:17:28) Didleth: ;) i'm not so young yet ; )
(17:18:05) Alster: :) ok
(17:18:10) Didleth: With PVM, the VM is changed a bit to work better and faster. -if i understand this sentence do i hoave to trasnlate the up?
(17:18:45) Alster: not neccessarily, no
(17:18:50) Didleth: ok
(17:19:02) Didleth: so for me we can continuate - and for you txopi
(17:19:03) Didleth: ?
(17:19:04) Alster: ad 2.: A hardware assisted virtual machine (HVM) is an operating system which is not changed (modified), but still works in a virtualization such as Xen.
(17:19:32) Alster: this works slower, since the virtualization layer /hyperviros needs to emulate more
(17:19:36) Alster: brb  phone
(17:19:52) Didleth: ok
(17:20:45) Alster: ok back ,sorry
(17:21:40) Alster: HVM only works if you have a certain CPU / processor which supports it.
(17:22:06) Alster: this is a processor function which is called Intel VT or AMT-V
(17:22:24) Alster: it supports the virtualization of such unmodified guest systems (virtual machines)
(17:22:54) Alster: so you can only do this with newer servers, not with the old ones.
(17:23:55) Alster: but you do not always want to use HVM anyway, since it is slower than PVM. So when do you use the HVM and when do you use the PVM virtualization model?
(17:25:04) Alster: As I said, PVM means that you must modify the guest (virtual machine) operating system so that it will work. This means you need to modify and recompile the kernel of the guest operating system.
(17:25:30) Alster: this is only possible if you have the source code, such as it is for linux, but now windows.
(17:25:56) Alster: As such, you can run Linux in a PVM but not Windows.
(17:26:48) Alster: With HVM, every guest operating system works since everything is emulated and the guest system really has not the slightest idea that it is not running on bare hardware.
(17:27:14) Alster: So this works for Linux, Windows, Mac OS, DOS or whatever.
(17:27:36) txopi: between two pvm xens you can move a vm quickly without recompulation of the kernel, etc?
(17:28:56) Alster: I'll get to your question shortly txopi
(17:29:03) txopi: ok
(17:29:21) Alster: But with HVM, the emulation layer (the hypervisor) requires the Intel VT or AMD-V CPU feature to do the hardware emulation. It could not do it in acceptable speed without this CPU support. So it really needs it.
(17:30:18) Alster: So linux can run in both modes, pretty much everything else only works in HVM.
(17:31:24) Alster: A PVM is a VM, just a special VM, a paravirtualized one. 
(17:31:30) Alster: ^ txopi.
(17:32:23) txopi: so in the same xen machine you can run a pvm machine and also a hvm machine in the same time
(17:32:43) Alster: So you can move coinfigurations and data between one PVM and another as quickly as between one real hardware server and a PVM or HVM (as long as they use the same otherating system version and architecture).
(17:34:37) Alster: txopi: While I'm not 100% sure, I think you can NOT have both Xen paravirtualization and hardware virtualization at the same time, since it requires a differently working hypervisor.
(17:34:47) txopi: aha
(17:34:51) Alster: so you would need to have two hypervisors work next to each other
(17:35:30) Alster: but this is getting a bit complex now and i'm afariad Didleth is shivering in a dark conrner of her room already.
(17:35:33) txopi: when you said that you can move configurationns and data between one PVM and another, you mean intro the same xen machine?
(17:35:42) txopi: or between two xen machines?
(17:35:46) Didleth: Alster: no
(17:36:00) Alster: :) ok
(17:36:04) Didleth: i'm just to stupid to understand it
(17:36:18) txopi: Alster, don't worry, for get my previous question (not the last one)
(17:36:20) Didleth: but i will work on understanidng it in this night
(17:37:09) txopi: Didleth, i have studied computer sciences, i use virtual machines at work. it is logical that you need more time to understand
(17:37:17) Alster: txopi: I don't remember what exactly I said but I probably meant you can easily move data between two Para-virtualized (Xen) virtual machines
(17:37:34) txopi: Alster: ok
(17:38:05) txopi: but the physical machines don't need to be equal?
(17:38:38) Alster: ah you mean two PVMs on different real (hardware) servers
(17:38:44) txopi: yes
(17:39:08) Alster: it doesn't make a difference as long as operating system and architecture are the same
(17:39:21) txopi: i want to understand if it is easier to move PVM machines or HVM machines
(17:39:31) Alster: it may need some different drivers, but that's a corner case.
(17:39:58) txopi: aha
(17:40:56) Alster: i don't think it makes a difference in terms of difficulty (or time you spend on it) whether you move a PVM or HVM as long as architecture and OS version are equal
(17:41:00) txopi: you mean that in a PVM installation all the vm's must run exactly the same os version?
(17:41:55) Alster: no, i'm just saying it's more work to migrate from one operating system version to another, independently of the virtualization model you use or whether or not virtualization is involved at all
(17:42:40) Alster: hmm we only have 15 mnutes left, how shall we use them?
(17:43:22) txopi: what do you prefer?
(17:43:31) Alster: i have no preferences
(17:43:39) txopi: i can stay half an hour more if you want
(17:43:51) txopi is not going to the swimming pool :-P
(17:43:55) Alster: Didleth: what do you think?
(17:44:07) Alster: bad luck for you, txopi ;-)
(17:44:14) Didleth: :-/
(17:45:09) Didleth: i have to work on understanding this all, but if i see the agenda - you can continuate Xen without me
(17:45:37) Alster: i thinkwe're pretty much done with xen for now Didleth 
(17:46:26) Didleth: hmm...do we have enought of time to have one comand maybe?
(17:46:31) txopi: Alster: do you know wich kind of vm are we going to run on nadir?
(17:46:55) txopi: learning shell comand is like eating chipssss :-D
(17:46:56) Alster: Didleth: do you mean testing Xen?
(17:47:22) Alster: txopi: i think it will most likely be a PVM
(17:47:33) Alster: a Xen PVM, to be precise
(17:48:10) txopi: aha
(17:48:11) txopi: ok
(17:48:14) Alster: but i think Xen is the only virtualization implementation which supports PVM anyway
(17:48:27) Didleth: alster: Introduction to common shell commands pt 2 (Alster)
(17:48:27) Didleth: Text manipulation and regular expressions with cut, sed, awk, grep
(17:48:39) Didleth: but only if you want
(17:48:40) Alster: Didleth: oh right. sure we can do this
(17:48:46) Didleth: i don't want to take your time
(17:48:51) txopi: i suppose that sed and awk are the more complex commands
(17:49:10) Didleth: grep we have done as i belive
(17:49:19) Alster: not really, the complex part is the regular expressions.
(17:49:28) Didleth: ok
(17:49:34) txopi: we have done just an introduction to grep
(17:49:36) txopi: :-)
(17:49:43) Alster: I was responding to <txopi> i suppose that sed and awk are the more complex commands
(17:49:45) Didleth: ok, i belive you :]
(17:50:02) Alster: yes we have done grep.
(17:51:04) Alster: I told you there are three types of patterns grep can work with:
(17:51:07) Alster:  -F for plain string patterns "pattern" matches "pattern" and nothing else.
(17:51:27) Alster:  -e for simple regular expressions.
(17:51:36) Alster:  -E for complex regular expressions.
(17:51:40) Didleth: yhm
(17:52:05) Alster: -e is the default, so if you do not invoke grep with extra options this is what is uses.
(17:53:38) Alster: I think we have three options now: 1. having a closer look at regular expressions, 2. learning the general use of sed and awk without going deeper into regular expressions, 2. learning 'cut' which does not use regular expressions.
(17:53:53) Alster: this was meant to say 3. learning 'cut' which does not use regular expressions.
(17:54:04) Alster: which one would you like?
(17:54:37) Didleth: i'm for 1.
(17:54:55) Alster: wooot, you'Re brave ;-)
(17:55:05) Alster: txopi: any preference?
(17:56:14) txopi: what Didleth wants
(17:56:25) txopi: or perhaps 3 (cut)
(17:56:31) txopi: it must be short to explain
(17:56:39) txopi: i have no idea of what it makes
(17:56:58) txopi: then you can continue with regexp without me
(17:57:00) Didleth: Alster: i'm not brazve i just suppose not know what I asking about ;P
(17:57:18) txopi: Didleth: xDD
(17:58:08) Alster: Didleth: :) would you be ok to start with cut and go into regular expressions afterwards?
(17:58:34) Alster: i think cut will not take longer than 10-20 minutes
(17:58:37) Didleth: ok, but if you have more time... how to ask it to not be unnice...
(17:59:09) Alster: i'll happily continue for up to 2,5 more hours
(17:59:41) Didleth: can we start with cut now and that talk about hvm/pvm more? i google it some and it seems really complicated, i'm afraid can not understand it self
(17:59:41) Alster: great. so: cut
(17:59:55) Alster: sure Didleth 
(18:00:01) Didleth: ok, sorry for problem
(18:00:12) Alster: we do cut now and afterwards the two of us do whatever you'd like to
(18:00:15) Alster: no preblem
(18:00:26) Alster: none at all
(18:00:53) Didleth: yhm, so cut
(18:01:18) Alster: cut allows you to cut something out from what is passed to it via standard input
(18:01:56) Alster: you remember standard input, that's everything which is passed to a program though a pipe | or the standard input redirector <
(18:02:35) Didleth: yhm
(18:02:42) Alster: so if you do this then 'cut' can work with it: echo 'Hi this is the kosmos system administrators.' | cut -some -option
(18:03:10) Alster: -some and -option are not real options for 'cut', I just made them up.
(18:03:14) Didleth: hmm...for exaple cat @ from the logs? ;-)
(18:03:26) Didleth: cut
(18:03:39) ***txopi used xargs once
(18:03:44) Alster: yes "cat /path/to/logs | cut -some -option" works, too
(18:04:05) Alster: txopi: xargs works, too, but only after piping
(18:04:30) Alster: and we haven't introduced xargs, yet :)
(18:04:41) Alster: so, back to 'cut' :)
(18:05:01) txopi: i was just making a comment. continue with cut please
(18:05:07) Didleth: yhm
(18:05:15) Alster: sure, sorry txopi ;-)
(18:05:51) Alster: you usually use 'cut' when you want to have just a part of a string and get rid of the rest
(18:07:05) Didleth: yhm
(18:07:19) Alster: so if we have "echo 'Hi this is the kosmos system administrators.' | " and want to use cut behind the pipe to only have the first 6 letters of this string, then we can ask cut to cut those out:
(18:08:17) Alster: $ echo 'Hi this is the kosmos system administrators.' | cut -c 1-6
(18:08:17) Alster: Hi thi
(18:08:18) Alster: $
(18:08:38) Didleth: cool
(18:08:53) txopi: in witch situation can be that useful?
(18:09:01) Alster: the '-c' option tells 'cut' to work on characters, and '1-6' ask it to cut out character 1 to 6.
(18:09:18) Didleth: but it is possible to have a text without expresion we dont want to have with cut?
(18:09:47) Didleth: or its only about the number of letters?
(18:09:57) Alster: txopi: it can be quite useful when you are grepping for lines in a log file, and those lines contain some information you do not really need, such as the timestamd
(18:10:16) Alster: timestamp. I'll come up with an example shortly
(18:10:17) txopi: Alster: ok
(18:10:17) Didleth: ym
(18:10:51) Alster: Didleth: can you make an example, I don't understand your question.
(18:11:32) Alster: Didleth: Do you mean you would like to only cut out 'kosmos' from 'Hi this is the kosmos system administrators.' and how to do this with 'cut'?
(18:12:08) txopi: i think that is what Didleth is asking
(18:12:46) Didleth: hmm.... for example if i don't want some line in file, but i don't know which one of line trhere are, only what is it them
(18:12:53) Alster: If this is the question, then the answer is: you cannot do this with 'cut'.
(18:13:00) Didleth: ok
(18:13:18) Alster: wait, I did not read your example yet
(18:14:21) Didleth: hmm...for example when i have logs in some chat and i don't want to read the rss who bot on the channel said
(18:14:36) Alster: Didleth: your example sounds like you are looking for something like grep. "grep -F 'some text i know is there' somefile" will only return the lines which contain 'some text i know is there'.
(18:15:04) Didleth: Alster: no, grep is the against this what i looking for
(18:15:18) Alster: ah, so you want everything BUT something, right?
(18:15:58) Didleth: yes, everyone exept a line which beginn with some phrase for example
(18:16:57) Alster: you would use 'grep -v' for this. The '-v' option means "give me everything but what mates the following pattern:"
(18:16:58) Didleth: fore example $:anarchizmlogs | command botsname
(18:17:31) Alster: so if you have this file 'mylog':
(18:17:42) Alster:   <didleth> I think bash is great
(18:17:56) Alster:   <botname> Hi I am a lame bot
(18:18:06) Alster:   <alster> I think so too.
(18:18:20) Alster: then you can do this to only get the first and third line:
(18:18:33) Didleth: yhm, and i don't know to see bot
(18:18:46) Alster: grep -v -F '<botname>' mylog
(18:19:10) Didleth: thx Alster :]
(18:19:21) Alster: Ok, so back to cut :)
(18:19:29) txopi: interesting
(18:19:55) txopi: today i'm learning a lot :-)
(18:20:01) Alster: good :)
(18:20:10) Didleth: (when i will be talking to much, you can do grep -v -F '<didleth> mylog ;-)
(18:20:26) Alster: we COULD, yes :)
(18:20:59) Alster: ok, 'cut' can cut out some characters from the input it receives, but instead of characters, it can even cut out complete 'fields'
(18:21:36) Didleth: can you give some example?
(18:22:30) Alster: echo 'Hi this is the kosmos system administrators.' | cut -d ' ' -f 6system
(18:22:30) Alster: $
(18:22:42) Alster: $ echo 'Hi this is the kosmos system administrators.' | cut -d ' ' -f 6
(18:22:52) Alster: argh, ignore the above lines. herE's the example:
(18:23:04) Alster: $ echo 'Hi this is the kosmos system administrators.' | cut -d ' ' -f 6
(18:23:08) Alster: system
(18:23:12) Alster: $
(18:23:37) Didleth: :-/
(18:23:37) Alster: sooooo, we just cut out the field ('-f') number 6
(18:23:50) Alster: the question is what is "-d ' '" for?
(18:24:29) Alster: '-d' stands for 'delimiter', which is a single character which is found between fields
(18:25:03) Didleth: hmm...this means?
(18:25:04) Alster: you usually have a blank space (' ') between words in a sentence.
(18:25:34) Alster: but cut is dumb and does not know this. so you need to tell it "dear cut, you can determine words in a sentence by the space between them"
(18:25:46) Alster: this is what "-d ' '" does
(18:26:09) Didleth: '6' is the number of the word in the text?
(18:26:34) Didleth: 5 would be kosmos and 7 administrators?
(18:26:39) Alster: 6 means "the sixths word (field) in the input"
(18:26:44) Alster: yes!
(18:26:45) Didleth: yhm
(18:26:56) Alster: $ echo 'Hi.this.is.the.kosmos.system.administrators.' | cut -d '.' -f 6
(18:26:59) Alster: system
(18:27:00) Alster: $
(18:27:15) Alster: does the same, this time our words are seperated by dots
(18:27:16) Didleth: :-/
(18:27:20) Didleth: interesting
(18:27:25) txopi: i undertstand
(18:27:31) txopi: now i'm leaving
(18:27:45) Didleth: ok, have a nice day txopi :]
(18:27:50) Alster: byebye txopi!
(18:27:52) txopi: the same for you!
(18:27:56) Didleth: alster - what about 10-15 break for a eating?
(18:27:59) txopi: c u